Sally Jensen, Interview, July 5, 2023

Tim Schütz 0:08
Can you tell me how you keep up to date about environmental issues in Taiwan? Or in the world, about the things that matter to you? What tools do you use to stay up to date?

Sally Jensen 0:26
This is a good question. I feel like I should talk about what I do when I first get into work. I run the climate and ecology desk. My job is also to stay abreast of everything that is happening, not just in Taiwan, but around the world. Every day I stay up-to-date with the latest climate and ecology stories around the world, through various news agencies, both domestic and international. If there is something with a good visual element, I will follow up with a piece or interview. Obviously, there often isn't video for a big story.

For example, today. They just realized that on Monday, it was like the world's hottest day ever recorded, and we don't have images. But it's a big story, we need to tell it. So I just get footage from previous times that we've done maybe like heat waves and things like that. We'll use that. At least we can have that news out there of the hottest day ever recorded. And yes, often I'll use Twitter, I see if there's anything major that's happening. That's how I've been seeing, you know, these global temperature records. Following a lot of climate scientists around the world. Local media– I follow a lot of the local environmental organizations like Green Citizens Action Alliance, Citizen of the Earth. We try to stay on top of things. But with climate and ecology, it's really difficult to plan ahead, because you never know what's gonna happen. You never know when a heatwave will happen or when a typhoon will happen. So yeah, it's kind of hard. So we just like on a daily basis try to stay on top of that.

Tim Schütz 3:21
In terms of visualization tools and where you get information from – were there any big changes over like the last five years, or anything you've observed?

Sally Jensen 3:34
I'm very new to television. This has been kind of a learning curve for me, really writing to the visuals. Taiwanese media often doesn't focus on things in the way that perhaps they should. So when the drought was really, really bad, and you know, the water shortages, were getting really bad earlier this year. I found that no Taiwanese media was really reporting on the impact on local farmers for some reason, and I felt like this was really important because you have to tell the story from the individual's point of view, like the farmers, what are they doing. So we go out and then we meet them. You know, we tell what's happening to the rice paddies, you get a visual of like the rice paddy dried out. And so sometimes when we are missing something, we are able to go out and get the footage ourselves. And for me, that's really been a game changer. Because I feel like I really get to do those stories in a way that I wanted to do.

Tim Schütz 5:04
Data always plays a role in [environmental issues], to make things visible. Are there any data stories that you reported on that really stuck with you? Like creative use of data, whether it's researchers or activists, or something like that?

Sally Jensen 5:25
In Taiwan?

Tim Schütz 5:27
In Taiwan.

Sally Jensen 5:30
Okay. With the graphics, Taiwanese media tends to do graphics really badly. On television, you will have the graphic and it'll have like tiny writing that only Taiwanese people really understand. When we get statistics or data, we have to present them in the most accessible comprehensible way, right? And I felt a little bit silly recently reporting on global average air temperatures, like they would be an anomaly. This is a word that the media also hates, the word anomaly, because it means nothing to the television viewer. We have a graphics team in house. We get graphics made by that team. So if I get a graph from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency, I then send it to the graphics team, so they can make it in our style, right? But the way they made it, it was like, it really didn't seem like there was any difference, it was this tiny, tiny thing. I was like, this looks really bad. I'm trying to say how major this is. This is so bad, right? But then the graphic just looks like– and that was fully on me. And then we ran out of time. So I couldn't get the graphics team to really zoom in on that part. It shows the disparity.

That was more like a global issue, but also a story that Taiwanese media just didn't report on whatsoever. Actually, on Twitter, I had a lot of feedback on this abroad, from climate scientists, climate people. They were astonished that, for example, BBC News, Sky News, hadn't reported on this issue. The scientists are so alarmed about it. But Taiwanese, well, I had reported on it. And I'd interviewed a guy about it. So they were like, how come all these other news organizations aren’t reporting on it? And even Taiwan uses [inaudible]. Some of the responses were like, “well, if you come from a communications background, you have to understand that audiences don't understand these graphs, they don't understand the data, or what does an anomaly mean, how do you present that in a way that's going to have an impact on your life.” This impacted people already. It is a difficult balance to strike. This is why science communication is so important, and I'm still learning, I think.

Tim Schütz 8:35
Why do you think the graphs are so detailed and small in the first place?

Sally Jensen 8:50
I think the reason that graphics are so detailed and bad, because Taiwanese people have a knowledge of things that people abroad don't. So if, for example, you're talking about wages. My colleague did a piece about how wages in Taiwan's semiconductor Industry are very high compared to other industries. And the graphic that we get has all of the different semiconductor companies, and how much each of them pays, right? And for Taiwanese people, they know the semiconductor companies, because they live here, and they've heard something about, they know all of these things. So they're okay to see like the tiny text that's done. All of the tiny numbers, for an audience abroad, they're not going to know what the average wage is in Taiwan, how it compares to these semiconductor companies wages. So you really have to just get the general picture for people abroad, whereas in Taiwan, they already have this background knowledge, this detailed knowledge of who did well, where, like in Taiwan.

Tim Schütz 10:06
I'm interested in that because as researchers, we're always struggling to make ourselves understood and make things compelling. And then with Formosa, they're one company among many in the US, and sometimes it's hard to cut through the noise and be like, this is important. At the same time, I often feel like in Taiwan, you have really compelling visuals, or community theater that people do in the villages. There's music albums about Formosa, or like exhibitions, that's why I'm interested in that.

Sally Jensen 11:01
I mean, the Taiwanese audience is very different from the [global audience].

Tim Schütz 11:05
Have you talked to people [in situations] where data played a role, in the sense that people were like "we wish we had this data or information available, but we don't have it." Where are there data gaps? For example, in Louisiana, there's not enough health data, or the data that is available, the pollution data is from the company. It's not really trustworthy stuff. Perhaps it has played a role in some of your reporting?

Sally Jensen 11:50
Yeah, to a certain extent. I think going back to the issue of Taiwan not being part of UN mechanisms. A lot of times, you know, international scientific bodies, when they do these measurements on Taiwan to do with climate stuff, where they don't do Taiwan, you know, Taiwan is missed out. So it falls to local scientists, local climatologists, or meteorologists to do that work themselves. I also think there's a lack of access to all the international work that's happening, because I think the scientific community is maybe slightly different, they can share a bit more. But when it comes to maybe sharing, for example, carbon emissions data, like from different corporations, that's all very transnational.

Also the other way around, Taiwan sharing its own scientific knowledge to the wider world. The typhoons that haven't arrived in Taiwan for a long time, you know, there's scientists at Academia Sinica here doing work on why is that not happening? I think there is a little bit of a gap between what they are able to find and what they want. It depends on the international body, whether it allows Taiwan to really participate meaningfully. But when it comes to political things, it's very difficult to know what to share. On a daily basis for me, like, sometimes we report China, and we find out things, you know, Xinjiang, what the energy base looks like, you know. All these kinds of things, it's a bit harder, but I haven't really done much on China. For that reason. I guess the data is harder to get.

Tim Schütz 13:57
That's an interesting data point. What are some disconnects that you've observed between different [environmental] groups, or the groups and the government, that are typical or characteristic of environmental justice, or the landscape of reporting [in Taiwan]?

Sally Jensen 14:22
I think the problem [is] with the, I guess, administrative bureaucracy. So this new climate law that they are implementing, now they're saying, it really needs to be cross departmental. It really needs all of the different government departments working together. And that is so difficult to achieve in Taiwan and I feel like a lot of times in any kind of system in Taiwan, they will say, okay, that's that department's problem, go and talk to that department. You're sent from different departments, all saying it's somebody else's problem. And I feel like it happens at all levels. Maybe not so much in the environmental movement, but I feel at the political level. You know, it is especially famous, the bureaucracy in Taiwan, like, you tried to get something done, and you don't really know whose responsibility it is, because everyone is telling you it's somebody else's responsibility. I feel like that's going to be a major hindrance to Taiwan's climate and environmental goals. Because people don't really know whether it's the government's responsibility, or if it's the company's responsibility. In the end, I feel like people have no choice, but they're like, okay, we're gonna have to protest, but there's nobody to–. Yeah, I didn't know, I think it's just this lack of accountability to do certain things.

Tim Schütz 16:02
Talking about protests – some people told me it's kind of an interesting moment right now, with the elections around the corner and the DPP in power. I've heard from some students and researchers that it's harder to protest Formosa Plastics, like overtly, right now, because of the current government. What is your take on that?

Sally Jensen 16:24
Ah, interesting. I don't know the current government's relationship with Formosa Plastics, what, what that is like. Perhaps it is hard. I know from the media perspective, there is a lot of corporate censorship, or self censorship where corporations do have the ability to go to a news agency or a media outlet and say, "we're not happy with this. You have to take it down, don't publish that." I've heard this, but it hasn't personally impacted me too much. I don't know how much the government has to do with that. Maybe as long as Taiwan's economy is seen to be strong, then you will still have the support from the public, because, you know, Taiwan's economy needs to be strong in the face of China. It wouldn't surprise me, I guess, if the DPP maintains these kinds of good relations with companies where it allows them to kind of act with impunity, in a way so that Taiwan's international image, or you know, strength can be quite evident. Maybe the DPP values that a lot, especially at the same time, the DPP also values its relationship with the US. So, when companies are committing these abuses in the US, that might come back to bite the DPP in the ass as well. And that's part of the point of focusing on this, because the DPP needs to take notice of what these companies are doing, and really rein them in and like, tell them that that's not okay. But whether they will intend to do that I don't know.

Tim Schütz 18:41
You went to a TSMC protest, and there weren't many people showing up outside?

Sally Jensen 18:47
That was partly because it was in Hsinchu, they're like not many people are gonna go to Hsinchu. Also, they didn't release the location until the very last minute. They told me also as a journalist, not to tell anyone, because I think TSMC themselves are very secretive, like a lot of companies very secretive about the location of their AGM. And that was quite funny, because we had no permits to go inside, but I just went and I said we're media with TaiwanPlus and they let me in. I went into the AGM, and you know, lots of people there but as a former kind of activist and protester, I was there like– I could have just, you know, kicked it off and like, just started screaming [laughs]. From the outside it was just Greenpeace. Not many people showed up. We were there because they told us about it

Tim Schütz 19:55
I get that question a lot, "are you an activist or are you a researcher." Where do you stand? And what type of information do people find trustworthy? How has that changed or hasn't changed?

Sally Jensen 20:19
So people really don't trust the media. Okay. It's really strange. I mean, Reporters Without Borders has said that Taiwan ranks very highly for media freedom, like, very highly and like China is obviously very bad. But it's ironic, because people here really do not trust the media at all. And I mean, very few people here watch TaiwanPlus. So they don't really know anything about it. But I think they perceive us as fairly independent and autonomous. Even though we belong to the Public Television Service, which is a government-owned, Ministry of Culture thing. We do have a lot of independence. You're free when it comes to reporting environmental and climate issues. Obviously, again, the usual like, "Oh, climate change is a hoax,", I just don't really care, because I know that it's not. And whatever people often say, like, "You're being alarmist, or you're being an advocate," it's like– I think there was a BBC journalist who was talking about how– he was reporting on these atrocities that were happening, and I think in a North African country, and you see, like, children dying and stuff. As a journalist, you're supposed to report on that, completely, like, almost cold heartedly, without any kind of feeling behind it. As a human being, you're like, this is so wrong and it is an emotional thing. I feel like just doing the work every single day, seeing what's happening, you know, people dying of heatstroke, and all this kind of stuff. I almost am at the point where I can't report on thi being like, "Oh, this is just normal." Because it's not. That's why I've been pushing for things like, just changes in wording, how we say things. We don't say climate change anymore, we say the climate crisis. I'm trying to get my colleagues to stop using the word natural gas, because it's methane gas and fossil gas. Natural gas also has an impact on the way people see things. The gas industry has invested so much money into making sure that that stays the same.

Tim Schütz 23:15
Part of the challenge of this [research] project is to connect gas and plastics. It's something I've seen in the US, suddenly people concerned with plastic talk to the people doing fossil fuels and LNG. Have you seen that convergence here?

Sally Jensen 23:32
As part of its net zero plan, it's kind of hilarious because now Taiwan is expanding its gas capacity in the energy mix, trying to move away from coal and oil. And they've really gone hard in the whole "natural gas is better" side of things. So they're building more gas plants to move away from coal and oil. Nobody seems to question the fact that gas is a fossil fuel as well. Besides the environmental risk, I don't think there's any connection between the gas and the plastic necessarily, or even just fossil fuels and plastic. There seems to be no basic understanding of that. I mean, it's also ironic, because when you talk to Taiwanese people about environmental issues or climate issues, the first thing they will say is, "Oh, yeah, I take my own reusable cup. I use my lunchbox, my own reusable cup, and I have my own metal chopsticks." So there's that widespread popular concept of climate and environment issues that is very much individual focused. Small habits or small kinds of changes in your lifestyle. Like this plastic thing, it's very much in their head, but it's got nothing to do with energy consumption, flying, or your diet, or things like that. Aligning that with Formosa Plastics, I haven't seen that really.

Tim Schütz 25:40
I guess the connection with gas and plastics is strong in the US because before the war in Ukraine, the gas was so cheap that it was lucrative. Since we talked about visualization, I think it's a question like, how do you really make the point that it's the whole lifecycle, or the different steps of plastics production?

Sally Jensen 26:02
The funny thing was, obviously, when COVID happened, and then the oil industry was feeling really threatened by its potential loss of profits. Nobody was traveling, no one was using oil. So then they had to like– “How do we use this oil? How do we push this oil on to consumers?” Plastic, right. So they really expanded the plastics market so that more people, especially during COVID, use single use plastics. That's how they were able to get rid of that oil. A lot of people here would never know. A lot of people anyway wouldn't know. That was a big part of it. They already had this strategy, like what to do, in case something like this happens in case of an epidemic and like people can't travel, you can't use oil in the same way that they did before. Okay, well, then we'll just make more plastic.

Tim Schütz 27:14
When Sharon Lavigne, Nancy Bui, and Diane Wilson came here, it was a lot about the harm that Formosa has done in the US and the pollution that you can see. In Taiwan, [Formosa] is the second largest carbon emitter and in the process of transitioning to gas, as this in-between solution, which is only cutting, I think, 30% of their emissions. I'm wondering how they are going to do that? And how are we going to keep track of that? From your journalist perspective, how would you cover Formosa in the long game, in Taiwan?

Sally Jensen 27:50
There is more focus now on greenwashing. It's still quite niche, but a lot of academics and activists are kind of focusing on how these companies might try to find ways of presenting themselves, doing good when they're still continuing these business practices. In terms of this whole kind of impunity, of just being able to do what they want to do. I don't think this is going to play much into the elections next year. If anything, the economy is going to be the most important issue. I think a lot of these industries have public support. So no matter what they do, no one's really going to hold them accountable, really, except for the environmental groups, and the academics, which is a shame really.

Tim Schütz 29:10
The narrative of Formosa – the founder used to be the richest person in Taiwan, and there's a story of him being frugal, hard, working, and not knowing what [the P] in PVC stands for, the acronym, when he started producing. Or being known as the "God of management," a story of bootstrapping, and how it's tied to Taiwan's rise. It feels like a touchy subject sometimes. What new narrative is there?

Sally Jensen 29:46
Yeah, like it's super interesting as well. About a CEO not really knowing much about the products. For example, when the author of "Chip War" came to Taiwan. He came to Taiwan where he was talking about, you know, the chip manufacturing sector and Morris Chang and everything. I don't know if I'm just crazy, but for me the biggest question is like, the chip manufacturing sector is responsible for so much energy use and emission and water use, it is endangering Taiwan more than it's protecting Taiwan. Right? No one asks these questions, no one thinks about that kind of long term outlook for the very existence of the chip manufacturing sector. It's all about, you know, as long as it's good for the party and power, then we need to keep that, we need to let it do what it wants to do. Morris has talked about the massive– I mean, they kind of give it some lip service, like, "oh, yeah, we're trying to reduce emissions in the supply chain, we're going net zero," this kind of stuff. Even like carbon capture and storage, we're going to start researching this and stuff, but didn't really see any real– I mean, it's like companies around the world, they say this, they've always said it. Anyway, to make them look good. They can kind of protect themselves a little bit from media scrutiny, from public scrutiny. Because they can just wave away with like, "oh, we're doing this."

Tim Schütz 31:35
Who owns the water?

Sally Jensen 31:37
Who owns the water? Good question. Well, supposedly it's public, the public owns the water, they are supposed to get the most water and then, supposedly, it's agriculture. And then finally, industry, but you never really know really. I think I've heard some of them are like, mixed together, or like public and industry is like, lumped together or agriculture and industry. There's no way of actually separating, finding out, that's the thing with getting data. Figuring out who is using what, who is polluting, or who is emitting what. Maybe if Taiwan were part of these international mechanisms and oversight, then it might provide a bit more impetus for companies to actually do something, but at the moment it is all local groups, and I really admire them because they have their work cut out.

Tim Schütz 32:53
If you wake up tomorrow, you will open your laptop, and there is new data coming in, or information. What would you hope for? Something that you don't have right now? Dream data.

Sally Jensen 33:13
My gosh, dream data– I guess some kind of rebound in biodiversity. Like all biodiversity. Maybe some species that were on the brink, and they, you know, come back. Corals just making a comeback and no more coral bleaching, something like this you know, completely wild and out there. Probably something to do with oceans. Because oceans absorb most of the world's heat. I think they are really key to changing. Oh, no, sorry. “We stopped burning fossil fuels.” That would be great. That would just be the data you would need. Yeah, we just stopped burning fossil fuel.

Tim Schütz 34:15
Yeah, like, we don't need to collect more data.

Sally Jensen 34:23
Fossil fuel companies have just disappeared.

Tim Schütz 34:27
But why biodiversity?

Sally Jensen 34:32
We've just destroyed so much in our existence and the vast majority of mammals on the planet because of us, creating all this imbalance.

Tim Schütz 34:52
The data question I like to ask because it kind of left an impression on me when we did this toxic tour in Louisiana with an air chemist who studies one or two [chemical], and she was like, "Can anybody get me a urine sample from those cows on the field that the company replaces, like every so often, because they die quicker. She was like, I'm gonna reward you". That's a particular kind of thing she wanted.

Sally Jensen 35:17
Yeah. I mean that's yeah, it's very specific. I would quite like for Taiwan's politicians also to just lay out their climate and environment policies. Like just say, what is your voice, your manifesto? What is your policy on this? Because they just don't. Yeah, I need that to do my job.

Tim Schütz 35:45
Thank you so much.