Kenneth Thompson Interview Transcript

“That’s another thing that happens around these injustices is that many of these organizations that should be talking together, they don’t. And I’ll tell you, I don’t know if they do it by design or by necessity. And what I mean by that is, if we are not having these cross conversations about what we are doing… while this one thing may have a positive impact, what are the um, well the ripple effects but then also what are the unintended consequences. And I think that one of the things that we can say surely is that too many poor people have been the victims of unintended consequences.”


Unintended consequences start “having an impact on family conversations and so therefore, if I start, early on, talking to my kid about these unintended consequences and how horrible they are… then to some degree, my kids starts to think about this barrier, this challenge in life that I have to walk up hill. And so that’s part of the injustices also, they work collectively. … And I think is goes with what Dr. King says, you know, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”

“You know. And we are all, what the beautiful thing is that we are all linked together with a common thread. And here, we can say, with natural energy if we figure out how to incorporate that with everyone, I think that quality of life would get better for a lot more people.”


“The power structure always has to be confronted. And I think it has to be confronted with new energy. And then also, we have to figure out how to hold the powerful accountable. And voting is one way, but I think there is another way. I think that organizing, and organizing in a way that there is diversity in that conversation, because I think there is a common thread that should exist in there also. And in fact that common thread does exist. That common thread is about humanity.”



“This climate steering committee, I see much more grass roots individuals. And I see people who wouldn’t be at the table in previous years of Austin. Surely not the number. Alright, So I find that good and healthy. I think also what I can appreciate about it is that the conversations have been transparent. Some of them have been uncomfortable, right? But I don’t think anyone has walked away from it just yet. You know, And I think that the reason for that is that there is a linkage between what we are all trying to do and that is about the quality of life and this thing about climate control, you know, those are real things, you know the climate change and some of us recognize those things. And then the beautiful thing that I like about climate control ist that there is a diverse group of people. Gives them some buy into the community

“You have a good program, but if you don’t have the right messages in the part of that program then your program is not going go nowhere. And I think this steering committee have a multitude of voices, I mean you have black, hispanic, you have white, you have lesbian, you’ve got gays, you have lgbt, and you can see that all of their voices have value.  And I think that sometime my voice is valued not just because someone is listening to me, but also the feedback that I get also, alright? I think that’s the other thing I value about that.”

“One of the first things that I did as the chair of the African American Resource Advisory Commission was to create a working group called Solar and Economics. And to some degree I feel very good that I had the foresight to do that. Because, and the reason for that initially was to bring the conversation around how do we keep seniors in their home, This thing about displacement, what are the things that can be done to offset some of the displacement. And the thing that I see that has the most potential to do all those things is renewable energy. Be it the sun or wind. … ”

“And… James one of the conversations that I think people have had. And I think I said this the first time. Don’t make equity a buzz word. You know what I mean, because what happens is every once in a while some of these things become buzz words. They sound good. And so… equity has to be more than a buzz word. And so when you think about these two things , the sun and the wind, whatever created us, I mean that is the most equitable source of energy that exists. It only becomes inequitable when man starts to become involved in it. Alright? And so how do we take that most natural equitable source of energy. How do use that again, how do we capture it, and then how do we hold the city responsible that talks a lot about being progressive to actually be progressive in, not only what they say but what they do. And the other thing is, how often have we seen this city streamline their processes for a community that they say they value, that’s disappearing, streamline their processes to try to make sure that those communities have access to the things that they need to stay in Austin. And I would say that we have probably never seen it. But I would say that the pleasant surprise at the climate steering meeting is having someone from the city group there. … Because just as the question was asked yesterday, is that, you can come in and talk about diversity but now take a look at your own organization. I mean do you have any in your own organization. And I think before, I don’t know how many of those questions would have been asked. They sure wouldn’t have been asked in the format that they have here. And I think again, this is probably the most diverse group we have had in a long time that I have been a part of.”

What has changed, why do they appreciate diversity?

“I think they can see the outcome when we don’t do it. The outcome when we don’t appreciate it. And I think people can see the outcome of empty rhetoric. And that’s another one of those threads that connect people. And I think we see value in diversity. And I think more people understand that we have more in common than we have un in common. Also, how do you get passed the minutia of corporate America, because corporate America will give you one message when the reality is something different. … then how do you integrate those tings, because also, you need those tings at some point. But then also you need your own independence.



“So what happens is that, there are these artificial barriers that we still put in place at times. And Again, I think they are there because those are some of the toughest conversations to have. And I think that sometimes, we’ll run away from them rather than address them. Not recognizing that they will reappear, and many times when they reappear they will be in a much worse condition than when we had the first opportunity to talk about them. That tells us that there is constant need to get better. And that is another thing I like about how this thing…

I expect us to come up with a fairly decent product at some point. In fact what I am hoping, w

At some point when we talk about how to get to the city council, is that we form a diverse group of individuals who can go and meet with each council person. (20.00)


Tank Farms, 30 or 40, leaked into our community our ground water. Now injustice is tied to our public schools. Quality of people in terms of teachers. Biggest injustice now. When it comes to the environment, how/why is energy causing so many people to be displaced?

When we are able to link these things together, we are able to see the commonality, you can also really see the disparity of need and opportunity that exist in these communities also.

When you talk about Austin environmentalism, historically environmentalists have been west Austin focused. When I think about Austin and environmentalist, before I got into climate justice, the only thing I could think of was the salamander. But I never felt that our voice was heard in that.

PODER offered a different assessment of environmental justice. We have to mindful here is, who are the messengers. Particularly our media. Our media has a role to play about equity that they don’t understand either. And the reason I say that is, most o f the people. It goes back to what we said about the Barton Creek alliance. Most of the time, the media, when they have a conversation about the displaced community, it is not the people that have been displaced that they are interviewing. And so they really don’t get a feel for the pain, the pressures that’s associated with this displacement. And so what they tend to do is gloss over it. You know what I mean? And I’ve not ever really seen a detailed analysis of all the players that they know in the game, but then also showing the outcome of it. So I think their message, whether intended or unintended, really reinforces that homogeneous voice about almost any issue impacting Austin. And then what that says to other folk, “hey, you need to find a way to fit in?” Well why do we need to find a way to fit in, when we are already in it.

…

“The people who tell the damn story are the same people who make the story up. And matter of fact they are talking to each other all the time.”

“Two things happen, we start to feel like, first of all, that our voice doesn’t exist. Right? And then you start trying to figure out, to some degree, why should you get involved? Why should you get involved when appears that those who should be the architects of fairness, right, are still imbalanced with their media and with their messages, Right? And so that, then I think also what happens with their communities, that a lot of folks are not aware of, is that its not always the surface community the you have to be mindful of, it’s the conversation that takes place in the homes in the communities. Right? And those conversations sometimes are completely different than the conversations that you hear on the news. And so also what you have to do when you are looking into this work and looking for diversity, you know make sure that you, they don’t choose one black person. And that black person speaks for every black person, right? In fact when you find someone like that, then you should run away from them. In my opinion. But I think thats because we don’t ask no one else to do that. But sometimes I think the media, they find someone they are comfortable with, and if they are comfortable with their message, they keep going back to them.

…

But the becomes their source, and I think that’s not a good thing because I think, again, the depth of this minority community is wider, and the needs are different for so many different people also.



Funding the issue.

Think about that again, the funding. See, not that we haven’t asked ourself, about, when we hear the word funding, what does that mean? That really means the choices that are priorities for those in power. I mean, you can tell us that you want to reduce the burden of the tax payer by closing our schools, and things of that nature, right? But then at the same time, you don’t want to reduce this burden, reduce this carbon pressure, on our society also. Right? But you’re going to build a bigger building and go in and do all those sorts of things that really adds to the footprints and not take away from them.

And so, but I think again, what has to happen through this whole thing, and you see it in some capacity, is where we start recognizing the bullshit. And what’s done happen is that… And I think this is wonderful, because what’s done happened is that see traditionally, you could, people, the system has been able to bullshit the minority community for a long time. Say one thing and do another. But what done happened, the world has gotten smaller, and as the world has gotten smaller, I was reading the other night.

…

And I think what we are seeing around the environment now is that, we’re seeing that it’s impacting a lot more people. So folks who wasn’t being impacted by it, who didn’t think they were being impacted by it, they didn’t they had any skin at the table. But over time what they realized is that, Dr. King was Right. … And that’s what’s happened with this thing. Now we recognize that the environmental quality, that the imbalance, when it’s imbalanced somewhere else, it’s still has an impact on all of us. And I think thats been the common thread where some have said, hey more of us need to get involved in this.

38: HT and UT on equal terms



“Another thing that you see here that’s missing is an African American galvanization around the issue. I mean, cuz you can look and PODER and you can look at Susana, and you can look at all my hispanic and latin brothers in terms of their ripple effects, but I think, what’s missing, has always been missing is that same cohesiveness in the African American community. And I think part of that has to do with politics, with availability and things of that nature. And then also with a response from the city. You know and what I mean by that is that, again, black folks, you know. They created the 1928 Plan for me. You know, they you know and so. So, all of these things that this progressive city has done have really been regressive in a lot of terms when it comes to me. And so, so when you think about, you know, I was talking about that second conversation, see that’s the second conversation that we have in our households about, not what they say but what they have done. Right? And I think that’s sometime a though thing to break through because those conversations are happening with people that you love and that you respect. And so having someone else that come in and talk about, “it feels good to be in Austin,” or “hey you are the top city.” Right? Well, that just reinforces to members of the community the how disconnected our policy makers are, right? Both in city government and county and state government. You know, and so, when you have those things happen, right, then it can zip someones energy and their willingness to give to a system that they see is already untruthful.”

Well, and I’ll give you a classic example, I’ll give you the biggest one that I think the city has an ugly mark on its face about. And this is the whole thing that goes back to the public schools. There’s two schools here that has historical value. One was Anderson High School and the other was Austin High School, the original Austin High School. One, they are rebuilding. They are gutting it internally the infrastructure is there, and they are rebuilding it to make it a state of the art facility. The other one they tore down. And then they are going to rebuild it, and what we say to them is that, we don’t always need to be rebuilt, right? Re-condition the original thing also. And so, one hand you talk about being all inclusive, but what you do to one structure, one community, and what you do to another is completely different, and those things again, see these things doesn’t happen in a vacuum. So this one I believe, the city, the government, school district, they’ve all, they all have a role to play in it. And, in fact, I’ve not seen anyone from the county, Ive not seen anyone from the city really chastise you know Austin ISD about their behavior, which will have a devastating impact because the secondary conversation that will take place, “Hey, man, don’t believe a damn thing what they’re saying, let’s go see what they’re doing.” … And Like I said, and I have not heard, I like the mayor, but I have not heard anyone talk about that as an environmental injustice. And how you tie it to environment is that, hey when we lose places that we have been most comfortable with, not because of our own doing but because of policy, right? You know its policy that milks you and gets you out, and allows, when my grandmother’s property is being sold, um, where someone can put two houses on it, and now, you know its worth 1.3 million dollars, and my grandmother bought her house for 32,000 dollars. And so, what that says to me also says, this conversation about the “right to return” well, y’all gonna sound like I’m a Palestinian. I mean it almost sounds like we are that dis… so disconnected when you have the “right to return.” But the fact of the matter is, again, it’s about the policies. See, if the policies that this progressive city will have implemented, then those kinds of things wouldn’t have happened, right?

See what I’ve always said about Austin, Texas, as progressive as it wants to be, It’s a very liberal city. Liberal to me means you can say anything you want, and justify it. … Liberal says to me that you can do whatever you want to do and justify it. But progressive says that you are thinking about the people or the situation that you are impacting. And I just don’t see that holistic thing about, from Austin, Texas, being progressive. Alright. In no pockets.

Oh man, really and truly, see when you’re liberal you can do anything. “See I done moved into the black community.” But hell that unintended consequence. “Yea, but I done made all of them move out. I done built me the biggest house in the neighborhood. I’m part of the neighborhood.” But now this guy, even when my grandmother dies, and the taxes have been capped, those taxes should rise up. So unless I come from a wealthy environment, I can’t come back to live in my grandmother’s house. That’s not very progressive. That’s liberal saying, “Hey it sounds good. It makes a good damn story, particularly when I am giving it to the audience I want to give it to.” But at the end of the day, It’s not a good story for me or for my community. And like I said, we have the folks here who can make sure those stories make the front page.”

Aw man, like I say, I’m home grown. I love Austin, but Austin is a place that, it takes a… To stay here, it takes a particular skill to survive it. You know that? You know what I mean? It takes a… and that skill, sometimes, is digesting bullshit and trying to make something else out of it. Yea, I mean really, because most of the stuff that you’ve heard, that you hear from those who say that they have your best interest at heart, I tell them that, if what you have done you said that you’ve had my best interest at heart, stop having it. God Dammit stop having my best interest. And start, at some point, bring me to the table, and let me tell you what’s in my best interest. And, if you’re going to bring me to the table, let me tell you, then I would expect that you would follow through with some of the things that I would tell you to do. And so thats, you know, like I say, Austin’s a beautiful place, but there’s just so many other pockets that could just make Austin not only beautiful, but a much greater place. Alright. I mean, again, when you have one radio station that caters to African Americans, right? Um, … that’s about it. I mean. You don’t have very many venues.

The thing that I would say that Austin is missing is what I call a black center. And I don’t mean a physical place, right? To some degree, but I don’t think that Austin has a place where black folks can go and put a plan together and try to execute it to maximize their existence. And you go back… those things are by design. I’ll give you two classic examples. When you go up to 11th street, 11th street we have the African American Heritage Center and you also have the African American Chamber of Commerce. Neither one of those places are built big enough that you can have a meeting in them. Now when I go to my, when my Asian brothers if they want to go and meet at the Asian center, there’s plenty of room for me. There’s plenty of room to center, to have a conversation right? If I want to meet with my Latin brothers, my hispanic brothers, I can go down to the Barrientos Complex. So, if you think about finances being one of the key cogs in your community, well if you have a center built that says you are about economic development but hell you cant have no meetings up there… For instance the African American Resource Quality of Life Commission, the first that exists, they don’t have a home. They have to meet wherever a building, facility is available for them. Now you talk about an injustice. I’m the first one, but yet there is not a sole place, there’s not a place for me to call home. And if I tried to go to the place on 11th street, where I should, right? It’s too small for me to bring people in there.

And so you look at how those things are set up. That’s not done unintentionally. I mean, you know, and so, and think about the power that again, if we had a place where there could be a black center, where there could be a group of black folks can actually have a conversation, just like anyone else. I mean my white brothers, they got the chamber of commerce, you go and look at their chamber of commerce, I imagine there is multiple meeting rooms in there, you know what I’m saying?

And the strategy should be about, how do we get better? How do we get better at existing here in Austin, Texas? But when there’s not a place for you to have those things, then what you end up doing is you having a community that needs to be together still acting as  individuals, right? And you try to tie a meeting together with a string of people that meets once a month to be that source when no other sectors of the community have those set of circumstances they have to work with.

And so therefore, again, that secondary conversation that you’re gonna have with someone that looks like you is not gonna be about how progressive Austin is. You know I can remember coming back on a plane one time from DC. And I love traveling, but I’m sitting next to this white guy, and this white guy says to me “I’m going to Austin, Texas.” I say “Im going to Austin.” “Oh it’s a wonderful place.” And I said “yea… it’s, cool, but…” And I remember start to bust his bubble about displacement, about the media, about all these things, and before long the guy wouldn’t even talk to me. Because what happen was that, I was … from my perspective, I was bringing him a realistic perspective of Austin, not saying Austin’s not a beautiful place, but there’s some challenges here. There’s some real challenges here that, that if you don’t address them, you lookin at a community that started out at 15%, and not down to 8%, right?

And I am, matter of fact, Im one, I like to tell people that my roots are in East Austin and my wings are in Pflugerville. Alright? I are up in East Austin. I was bussed to a school called Burnet Junior High. I lived in one of the first projects in North Austin. Now even though I grew up in a poor community in East Austin, the difference was, in my neighborhood, I grew up in a poor neighborhood in East Austin, but the difference in my neighborhood, is up the street, Mr. Davis who was librarian and his wife was a teacher was there. Around the corner there was a doctor, you know. In the neighborhood, somewhere, there was a lawyer and all of those things was even in that neighborhood. So now when the government decides that they got a better place for me in these things called “projects,” it was the first time in my existence, in anybody’s existence, where everybody was poor. See there was no longer no teachers there, there was no longer no doctors there, there was no longer no one that you could go and talk to that can give you a different perspective on life. Everyone in that place, we all came from the same place, and therefore we were limited. And you start thinking, are those things automatic, or are they systematic?

And so I was fortunate enough that in the neighborhood, I had known Mr. Davis,  and I’ve known some other people, and had these youth coaches. (55 min)


59:50

That’s part of the economic injustice, and part of the environmental injustice that you have to deal with also. And so, to some degree, what that also caused was early death. I mean, I’m 58 years old and I bet I can name you 30 people that I grew up with, that died before 30 years old. That’s not something that everybody can do, and that’s not something that everybody should be able to do. But when you think about the disparities, that’s what disparities lead to. Disparities lead to horrible outcomes, for those who just want the rules to be fair. That’s all I want. I don’t want nothin, all I want… Give me the same opportunity. That’s all I want. Right? Let me breath the same, don’t contaminate my air. Let me breath the same air, don’t put the incinerator in my, well if you’re gonna put one in mine, put one in yours. Right? The ground water right? I wanna, you don’t wanna drink water with lead in it, so why do you think I would wanna drink water with lead in it? You know.

Me: That’s actually something that I’ve been thinking about lately, so the office of sustainability, they often you know use that one image to represent the different between equality and equity. (Explained)

Doesn’t that also seem to signify that certain people, like I mean, if it’s applying to racial relations, that certain races need “more?”

Kenneth: “That they need more help. Right, like I need help, right, and so who does that really make feel better about that, right? Yea, I mean, so again, that’s one of those things that looks good, but if you dial back to… and I will almost guarantee when they, again, when they put that thing together, they probably thought that it looks good and it probably gave them the responses they thought they was gonna get. But they did go out and add more people and have some deliberative thought to those things, right, then perhaps someone’d say, “Hey man, wait a minute, You’re makin me feel like Im in need all the time.” Right? And you dress this thing up. Now I would dress it up as someone being much bigger. That he can reach up to the tree anytime he want to, right? And then that says, “now how do I get as big as that person?” Without have all these other boxes. Because even if I have those boxes, when I step down on them, is still cant reach the tree like that other person can reach the tree.”

And I think about this, you think about this, you think about the city that says they have to have an equity manager, That says to me that you already recognize based on your numbers that there’s some issues. And what it says to me as a council, “I’m not willing to address them. I wanna have someone else, I need a layer in between me, I need to have someone else that I can blame for it.” I gotta get someone else to do it. And then I can beat that person up, I can beat that system up. I mean, it becomes this, this game to some degree.

You know, and so. And I mean, I love my friend, Doctor Holley from Austin Community College down there at the Austin Independent School District, but the fact of the matter that if you feel like you have to hire someone, when you know all the outcomes already. I think that that just says that you recognize that you have done some things and you are trying to figure out how to get someone else or some other system to deflect from what you have done. (1:04:30).